How long do / should atomisers last?

[exogenesis]

I've been reading about dead / dying atomisers on various forums,
each time I was thinking 'oh, thats bad luck, must have be a slightly faulty one'
Good job I got only good ones 

But one month into vaping & one of my 3 atomisers just went completely dead,
OK jump onto TW site & order some more....

Expected life-span 14-60 days says the shop blurb,
but how long do they really last, I'm hoping the above words don't imply a designed built-in-redundancy
(1980's Ford Escorts anyone?)

So hence the poll, If you've had one die how long did it live for ?

EDIT : you can vote more than once if you want....

[Silk]

Not an easy stick to measure with, as much depends on : is it your only device. How many carts/batts you do a day, how heavily you vape on it, and most of all......

Luck!!

But I do strongly believe these really are the weakest link in the chain, and it is pretty much a lucky dip as to whether you get one that will last (a short while), die without warning, or fade away. If your really lucky, you chance on a wonder atomiser, that vapes great and can go the distance, but the rest......

Take a look at these, Its scary!
(& no I ain't being anal, I just keep my e-cig mails in one folder so it took minutes to put this together.)

Between Dec 5th and Feb 10th  I kill 5x e-cigars
  Jan 5 - 1x TW Platinum (plus 1x spare atom)
  Jan 20 - 1 x TW Plat dies (but now I am vaping Minis and egars) (15 days)
  Jan 21st - 2x TW black Minis
  26 Jan - 1x Evo + Spare atom
  Feb 1 - 1x Steel Pen
  Feb 8 - 1x Black Pen 1x Cranberry Pen
  Feb 13 - 1x Black dies (23 days)
  Feb 18 - 1x evo dies (but now I am vaping Minis, Evos and Pens) (23 days)
  Feb 20 - 1x evo replaced
  Feb 23 - 1x Black & 1x Plat replaced
  Feb 24 - 2x evos die (1x 29 days 1x 4 days!)
  Fed 25 - 1x Plat dies (51 Days)
  Feb 26 - 2x evo atoms
  Mar 1 - 1x Plat Dies (6 days!)
  Mar 3 - 1x Black Mini Dies (41 days)

Now this is 1 every 19 days if you work on averages,
or if you want shock stats: 1 atomiser a week!

But as you can see I am getting deaths from 51 Days down to 4!!!!
And don't forget, now I am spreading this through 3x devices (plus analogues cos they are reliable and dont die without reason  )

But I would say on average your looking at 3 weeks

Would love to see others listings like this - but I bet my stats are more the norm than we would like. And shows they are little more than a disposable item.

So we need them: better constructed, priced nearer a fiver, shipped with return envelopes, (cos we know they ain't gonna last) , or maybe an offer when coupled with liquids and/or carts

Yes, Simon, Jason and John have all replaced them without quibble, but in the long run it is all a bit of a PITA (especially when the PO is not convenient) and really annoying when your out and about.

On Mini's I am leaning towards the battery being probably the cause. i.e. carts near its end (getting a little dry) batt sticks on or goes into clean cycle - atom overheats and = 1xdead atomiser
On Evo's I have no clue why they just die, they just stop.

But so far (he says touching as much wood as he can) my pens live, they just get a little weaker indicating I might want to consider ordering a new one soon - now that I can live with.

[exogenesis]

Very nice info !

Wish I had known about this before starting on e-cigs,
would have looked around for a bulk purchase rather than buying a few at a time.

So I have one dead out of three, the other two are significantly reducing in effectiveness as well.
They were all used on an equal basis, i.e. all three 901's on my desk & vaping them in sequence.

Dismantled my dead one (careful hacksawing & pliers), it's obviously burnt-out,
i.e. missing a chunk of the wire (NiChrome?) smack in the middle of the coil:



I suspect the electric 'cleaning cycle', cos I was a bit surprised it's wasn't all black/tarry/gunked-up
like I've seen in some other pictures, but then this is after methanol soak/rinse then
hot water rinsing/drying of the intact atomizer - didn't see any gunk come out though.
I've definately seen one of the steel-mesh wicks glow red-hot (by chance), don't know if it was this dead atomizer though.

I'm actually back on real ciggies till my new atomizers arrive cos it's too frustrating getting
intermittent little bits of vapour from the other two atomizers, regardless of them having been hot water cleaned.

I'm gonna take the blown one to work to chemically analyse that fibre,
since I've seen some scary pictures of it all being melted & black.
i.e. find out if it's mineral fibre or some high temp. polymer.
Don't fancy inhaling melted Kevlar or especially denatured Asbestos (internet-FUD-alert! )

Maybe the modders will stump up a really easy to make & use alternative atomizer one bright day ?

[Wolfeslad]

a little over 4 weeks and i havent had 1 die yet but i have lost 1 (how the hell did i lose one??!??)

[Goffski]

I snapped one in half in my pocket but apart from that all the others are fine. I've been vaping for about six weeks now but i do keep swapping between devices so probably not over used one for it the fail (touch wood).

[exogenesis]

Was just thinking, I've been assuming most/all e-cig models use the same vapourizer heated coil design.
But that intellicig one looks completely different to the 901's, at least from the outside.

Maybe some models/makes have more reliable ones than others, if so it'd be great to find out.
Question is how?

But then again judging from Silk's long list, maybe they're all short-life devices.

[Silk]

I think you'll find they are all basically the same design - with the evo style only being diferent in that its exposed rather than recessed. Even big fat (disposable) cigars are the same - just bigger  .
(one of these days I will get my sawn-off vegas made, as I would love to see just how far that atomiser will go)

But just looking at the basic design, as it is - I can't see how they can realy be anything but semi disposable, your heating a small thin coil of wire up time after time, that is wrapped round a small wad of material that soaks up liquid from the bridge.
Deep cleaning might improve things in the short term (the jury is still out on that - if you read accross the forums there are as many people stating it don't work as there are saying it does). But generally, if you heat up and cool a small coil of metal enough times it WILL weaken and break.

Add into that: the quality of the coil, tolerences on its makeup and how it was drawn (when you make the wire in the first place, which is done by heating metal and drawing it out in long strands) and your looking at something that is just asking to break.

If you've done any amount of wiring, especially in small electronics and you will remember coming across wires that break off of fracture when you try to, bend, fit, or solder them due to weakness spots in the wire - no matter how carefull you were.

The only answer in this design would be higher quality wire which would work out too expensive. And even then you would still tranfer problems to the wadding or the conections. Better to accept it is just going to happen and that they are disposable.

One thing I do have to hand to a couple of the more reputable suppliers is that they do admit this (although I think John is a bit generous in his estimations) in fact Jason's estimate of 14 to 60 is pretty fair.

I just think more suppliers should be more open about this (and true cart life) including in their blurb on their kits.

There is rumour of other atomiser designs (ceramic based and/or ultrasonic) but little evidence of these yet. (or if they are any better/long lasting).

[exogenesis]

Does bigger = more reliable of the cigars ?

Maybe the basic design is sound, but it's all just a question of materials & design detail.
Cost might be the materials limitation, design - well it's early days I suppose.

Possibly the burn-out of thinnish Nichrome wires is the key,
i.e. hot wire in air = oxidises, and any baked-on gunk stops it cooling/causes overheating, i.e. a positive feedback situation,
presumably this weakens & thins the conducting wire's area & at some point there's a catastrophic burn-out.
Nichrome spec. blurb says the oxidised surface layer actually protects from further oxidation,
but basically I really don't think this material is up to this job (on a long term basis).

So a better, (even) more oxidation resistant metal than Nichrome might give longer life?

Platinum wire comes to mind.

Nichrome (80/20)
I estimate atomizers use 0.01 mm diam. wire, 7 turns around a 1.5 mm diam core = 33 mm length.
This has around 1.3 ohms/cm, so the coil is 4.3 ohms.
Cost : less than 20p per metre, i.e. cost per atomizer = practically zero.
1400'C melting point

(Edit said 0.1 mm, should have been 0.01 mm)

Platinum wire:
0.025mm diam = 2.2 ohms/cm
Melts at 1770'C

This would need around 2.0 cm (only 4 turns) for 4.23 ohms, probably too few turns,
but 0.05 mm would be 0.55 ohms/cm & around 7.8 cm (16 turns).

A little pricier
0.025 mm = £70 per metre
0.05 mm = £65 per metre
but you'd get say 13 atomizers per m of 0.05mm, i.e. £5 per atomiser.

The solder connection might be even trickier than with nichrome
(which I think requires a special 'acid cored' solder/flux and lots of rinsing!),
but I'm sure it could be done.

On the plus side , the wire is thinner (more flexible) & significantly stonger than nichrome,
should be easier to wrap without damaging it.


Might have a go at this, then again I suspect there's more mechanically/electically adept
people out there, but laying out the cost on an experiment is the thing.


If the manufacturers tried something like this, but decided it added too much cost to the atomizer,
I would respectfully suggest that a £20 atomizer that lasts 10 times as long (grabs a figure out of the air)
would keep a buyer base longer than a £7 atomizer that you have to keep on buying, and buying .....


Also a plus, 'Platinum' E-Cig owners could but a platinum atomizer

[Silk]

Does bigger = more reliable of the cigars ?

Probably not - just seems more space, slightly larger, just hae this idea of a sawn off vegas - sort of an e-stogie. LOL

Platinum wire comes to mind.

In the depths of this forum is a thread called "If money wasn't an object" where I suggested this, (as a semi serious joke)plus cotton rag for the core wick

The solder connection might be even trickier than with nichrome

Dunno about these days, but when I worked with it in the 80's - you used silver solder, and needed a small flame iron

On the plus side , the wire is thinner (more flexible) & significantly stonger than nichrome,
should be easier to wrap without damaging it.

And its extruded/rolled under much stricter tollerences meaning less weakspots/breakages

If the manufacturers tried something like this, but decided it added too much cost to the atomizer,
I would respectfully suggest that a £20 atomizer that lasts 10 times as long (grabs a figure out of the air)
would keep a buyer base longer than a £7 atomizer that you have to keep on buying, and buying .....

I would guess nearer £50  , and that isn't as suprising as you would think - check out the genuine ruyan v8's and try and find one much cheaper! kits go for nearly 200 yoyos in Germany or $170 in us! (not found a genuine suplier over here). If I had the cash I would get one just to see if I could see why so much more than generic pen? But if the vegas is anything to go by, it 'could' be down to the parts they use. (same reasons a Neff is £500+ and a Beko is £150? parts are much higher quality and the things last for years)

so the problem is - would anyone buy them? The trend seems to aim more at people wanting a $5 atomiser than $50 even if it crashes after a week. I might, if I could be sure they were truly better made, but I would want a genuine 12mth warranty too.

[exogenesis]

Looked around a bit for the Ruyan V8

i wasnt impressed with the ruyan atomizer

and other 'they're no better' posts.
Appears the extra cost is due to the 12 month warranty
--> valid only if you use their expensive consumables.

What's are Neff & Beko ?, google turned up nowt regarding E-cigs.

You're probably right, the mark-up would probably make commercial platinum-based Atomizers pretty expensive.

When my next one dies, I think I'll dismantle it with a view to reconstructing it with platinum wire.
And when I get over this damn streaming cold, I'll get back to work & find out what that fibre is....

[exogenesis]

I think its 38 gauge = 0.1 mm or 0.004 inch.

I'm assuming it's Nichrome from what I've read elsewhere, but I guess that not proof.
I'll have proof one way or the other when I get back to work & stuff the thing under X-Rays for analysis...

[spiraller]

Thats very very thin stuff. Thanks for the info I look forward to hearing what you found out!

[Silk]

Add another Black mini to that list (just edited it)

Now down to my last Mini Atomiser - 

[JohnBoy]

Don't be in a hurry to chuck out vaporisers that seem to have died... I tried one that I had not used for days today because I thought it had gone to vapouriser heaven... and now its fine, as new almost... They do seem to be very erratic.

[exogenesis]

Silk - you must be TW's best customer 

I guess it depends in what way an atomizer is 'dead', mine was a complete wire blow-out,
so no returning from the dead for that one.

A quickish analysis of the ion-etched (cleaned) fibre showed:
64 atomic-% carbon,
18% oxygen,
7% silicon,
4% flourine (!),
3% nitrogen,
2.5% calcium (possibly from the water washes)
1% tin (probably migration from the solder)

Implication is a fairly complex polymer, presumably specifically developed for heat resistance
(didn't stop some peoples fibre from almost completely melting though).
i.e. probably not a mineral fibre, it's a silicon-flouro-carbon polymer?

The carbon (& possibly oxygen) may be showing as significantly higher than they should,
cos of the build up of used (burnt) e-liquid, which is difficult to clean off of a fibrous material,
(so I might try looking at an un-used atomizer at some point).


The wire is definately Nichrome, with a very thick oxidised layer (not too surprising), relative to it's diameter,
& again some tin & a little copper, probably from the solder & copper wires.


The solder blobs showed primarily tin (as would most solders).


I'm told that Nichrome is 'normally pretty good at this sort of thing',
but it's obvious this is an application too far for it (to be reliable).

Not sure that this was worth the effort, but every little bit of info helps

[Silk]

Maybe, but still interesting exo. I like knowing what things are and (roughly) how they work. Lets me build a picture about my expectations. Mixed with llisting that lot out myself has shown me which way I should be heading - I think diferent styles suit diferent styles of smoker, and I think the  more cig 'style' e-cigs are just not up to my style of vaping. (which may be the reverse for others)

as for TW best customer - no where near    I'm a product tart, and change allegence according to who's doing what. (not necessarily the cheapest - more who is selling what 'i' want).

[exogenesis]

Not getting a whole lot of voting going on, it seems.


Anyway, update on the fibre:
After getting a much clearer shot at analysing the fibre & a lot more ion cleaning (to clear off the carbon & other organics)
it seems the fibre might well simply be silicon dioxide (i.e. silica)
Melting point would be 1600 to 1700 'C.

Certainly fits with the cheapo materials that seem to be being used to make these things.

Must be a better way...